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Themistocles' General Squad Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Squad Help' started by Themistocles, Mar 30, 2020.

  1. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    So my son has caught me daydreaming at times, and I admit I'm thinking ahead to getting my R6 or R7 Malak.

    What am I thinking about? My general GAC strategy. I was thinking that typically if I review the person's roster and they don't have a lights out Padme (or GAS, but I doubt that I see too many of them in Div 6 or 5?), that I should just throw my Revan/Malak squad down on defense in the front wall and dare them to break that.

    Between that and the geo squad that I'm starting to work on, that to me seems a pretty formidable wall at least down at these GP levels.

    Or let me ask the question another way: Under what circumstances should I be tricky with my Revan/Malak squad (i.e. hiding in the back wall or holding for defense)?

    1) Well relic'd Padme squad?
    2) GAS squad (I hope I don't see any of these in Div 5 next time)
    3) Another well relic'd Revan/Malak squad?
     
  2. Electricboa

    Electricboa Moderator Staff Member

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    It’s difficult to say because of the difference in divisions. For me in Div 1, DR, Padme, DR, and GAS are normally saved for offense. I’m actually one of the exceptions by putting my GAS on defense.

    A strong Malak can be scary. There’s actually a special way people need to mod Padme’s team for her to be able to win consistently. Padme has to be slower than everyone else, but the team can’t be too slow. The idea is DR will go first and hit Padme—everyone else gets fear. Then Bastila usually goes and throws out debuffs. Then you want your team to go. Everyone but Padme takes a turn to lose fear. Padme then goes and flips all the debuffs to buffs. That team also normally uses C-3PO of a solid Shaak Ti.

    How many people are actually going to have that team and mod them like that? An R6 or R7 Malak can pretty much solo a Padme team if they aren’t careful. I actually happen to have my Padme modded to counter DR, but that’s mainly because I never had a reason to change the mods.

    If you run into GAS, you’re pretty much done. GAS will normally be able to take Malak out and that’s it. I would say it’s unlikely for you to run into one, however.

    For another DR/Malak team, it’s going to come down to your mods. If you’re faster, you can win. If you’re not, the odds are not in your favor. If you feel lucky and have a mod advantage, you could put Malak on a defense team or have him solo another team and have DR try it without Malak.

    That’s the thing with Malak. He’s great on defense because not every team can beat him. And that holds true for offense. You can solo a lot of teams with Malak for a high banner win. I do that a fair amount. If I think I can win with DR and not Malak, I’ll split them to try and get more banners elsewhere.
     
  3. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    How much should I factor in not having his 2 zetas immediately even though he will be R7 or 6?

    Can you give me some ideas as to what kind of solos Malak is capable of pulling off? The very nature of that scares me a bit, but am willing to give it a shot.
     
  4. Electricboa

    Electricboa Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah, without the zetas Malak is not going to be all that great. His zetas are required more so than the gear.

    Malak can solo an Old Republic team pretty easily. Outside of that, it’s hard to say, especially not knowing the gear level. A G12 or lower team might not be able to take on Malak when a G13 of the same team could. Rebels would probably be like that. It’s better to consider it on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes, it just won’t work.
     
  5. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    Oh rip - maybe I should save the Carth lead zeta and rearrange mods to acquire Malak. If I get at LEAST Jaws of Life on him and he's at R7 does Malak become truly scary or does he also need the Fear zeta as well?
     
  6. Electricboa

    Electricboa Moderator Staff Member

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    If you can get away with not giving Carth the zeta, that would probably be better. As I said, you can easily use Mission, Zaalbar, and Canderous in a scoundrel team so it’s not like you’re locked in with OR.

    You see, when I first got DR, I did it as cheaply as I could because I just barely made it for his first release. I gave Carth his zeta because I was struggling in the phase where you use everyone under a Carth lead (I can’t remember which one it was). I was getting frustrated and gave him the zeta to help give me more of an edge. At the time, no one knew that Malak was coming out right after (CG did it as a knee-jerk reaction after too many people got DR without spending).

    You’re going into it knowing what you need for Malak, so you don’t have to give Carth the zeta. I can’t recall what gear my Carth was for DR, but it was probably G8 or G9. Even with the zeta, you’re looking at probably G11 to qualify for Malak. So you shouldn’t have nearly the trouble I had with it.

    As far as Malak, you kind of need both zetas for him to be a genuine threat that can solo. Gnawing Terror is probably more important than Jaws of Life because of how useful fear is, but either way whichever one you don’t do first would be your next zeta priority.
     
  7. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    Out of curiosity, is a Darth Revan / R7 Malak with no zeta still decent on offense? If that's the case, I might use my JKR squad as my defensive monster...

    Or are the Malak zetas necessary from an offensive use perspective as well?
     
  8. Electricboa

    Electricboa Moderator Staff Member

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    Without the Malak zetas, he’s not going to be doing much for you on offense or defense. DR is still a very good team, but Malak won’t be pulling his weight until you get the zetas.

    The zetas give Malak his entire utility. He’s a tank, but you need Gnawing Terror to make it so attacking him punishes the attacker. If they critically hit him, they get fear. That can really mess up a team when they get one hit in and have to skip their next turn. Jaws of Life are so as Malak get hit more and eventually starts to lose health, he can come back and attack. It’s integral to using Drain Life enough times in a battle for it to matter.

    Some zetas are good but not game changing. They improve what's already there. Malak's zetas make him a great chaarcter. without them, he just isn't. He needs them for his kit to really be good.
     
  9. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    Alright, that settles it. My zeta order's getting rearranged so that Carth goes 5th. I'll probably upgrade just the right number of 6 dot mods on say someone like JKR to get Carth over the hump. Greef will just have to wait a little bit longer for cleanse zeta then.

    My short term zeta order is now: Gnawing, Jaws, KRU Pre Taunt, Queen's Will (my Geos are actually getting to the point where they might be annoying on GAC D and I want to help them along), then Carth Lead, finally Greef's cleanse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020 at 9:17 PM
  10. Stormlink15

    Stormlink15 Member

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    Your geos might already be good to throw on the back wall. When I was in an earlier division, a lot of people would underestimate the geos even though they were only gear 8 ish.
     
  11. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    Stormie, did you have Queen's Will at the time when they were underestimating you?
     
  12. Stormlink15

    Stormlink15 Member

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    Ah shoot, I don't remember, sorry Themistocles.
     
  13. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    Hey out of curiosity, what's your mod speed number that needs to be met in order for you to use 6-dot mod materials on slicing up that mod to 6 dots?

    Is it 10? Is it 15? I ask because I have a nice little stash of mod materials saved up and on my initial set of Darth Malak mods, I have a set of at least +10 speed mods waiting for him with protection primaries (yes I know you all probably have a lot more than +10 speed). I was going to go ahead and drag all of Malak's mods up to 6 dots immediately in order to max out the protection primaries.

    OR..is +10 not good enough for you all? Do you all hold onto your 6 dot slicing materials waiting for a mod to hit a +15 speed secondary before you'll pull the trigger?

    I was also going to be selective with my 6 dot mod material, just like I will be with my G13 gear. For instance, in my future complete Sith Empire team, I was only going to put 6 dot mods on DR, Fallen, and Malak but leave them off SET and HK. I would then at that point start sprinkling 6 dot mods throughout my various squads in order to lift the level of all my squads more broadly. Is that a prudent strategy?
     
  14. Electricboa

    Electricboa Moderator Staff Member

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    That’s going to vary wildly from person to person. Some people just have more/better speed secondaries that can skew things. And then you have the question on whether you’re doing it for the secondaries or the primary.

    For me, it looks like I mainly sliced mods that were +16 or better:

    https://swgoh.gg/p/613136164/mods/?sort=secondary_stat_5&sort_direction=desc

    But at a certain point, the secondaries aren’t as important. Once you have a couple really fast sets of mods, you can start looking more at the primary stat and how valuable it is. For me, health primaries are a lot more useful because of how many characters benefit from them. I’m unlikely to slice a protection primary.

    But it is a good idea to be strategic with what mods you slice. I was talking with someone yesterday who was having trouble with the GAS event and eventually asked me to look at his mods. He had a bunch of, frankly, trash mods at Mk 6. No speed secondaries at all and the stats they did have were almost never exceptional enough to be worth taking to Mk 6. It was a bunch of wasted resources that he’s never going to get back.

    Now is the point where I show my hypocrisy, but with a purpose:

    https://swgoh.gg/p/613136164/characters/bistan

    https://swgoh.gg/p/613136164/characters/scarif-rebel-pathfinder

    Both of those characters have Mk 6 mods that are not really worth being sliced. But in that specific instance, I was purely doing it to improve the ship stats. The characters are trash and would never be used, so putting good mods on them would be a waste. I just wanted the GP, so I sliced weak mods that wouldn’t be used anywhere else.

    That is something you shouldn’t do unless you know exactly what you’re doing. I already had full Mk 6 sets for my arena team and more, so doing it didn’t hurt me at all. And boosting the ship did help me in the fleet arena at the time.

    But as a general rule, you would want to first focus on getting a really good 6-mod set with high speed secondaries. Most metas want you to have at least one really fast character, so having a full set is a good idea. If you can do two, even better.

    Where that line is, will depend on whether you want to see if you can get better mods later or work with what you have now. I guess if I would give a rule of thumb, maybe +13 and above? All else being equal, primary stats that do more for you:

    Health (5.88% to 16%) – Easily the biggest jump in utility, but more for G13 characters (maybe G12, too). At those higher levels, you get enough health for that +16% to mean a lot more than a +24% protection. More characters have kits that involve health and it’s a lot easier to recover health than protection.

    Protection (23.5% to 24%) – The second worst upgrade of the bunch. You’re only getting a 0.5% increase, which is almost nothing. There are characters that do use protection a lot (Malak, GAS, etc.), but in most cases you don’t need to spend the slicing materials to upgrade it.

    Speed (30 to 32) – A pretty solid upgrade. If you go from a full Mk 5 set to Mk 6, the total speed increase will be +7 (counting all the mods).

    Critical Chance (12% to 20%) – More of a niche increase. There are definitely kits where you get bonuses for critically hitting someone or how Raid Han gets TM from his Deadeye equal to his crit chance. But it’s not something everyone is really going to benefit from.

    Crit Damage (36% to 42%) – a solid upgrade for any character that does damage. A +6% increase doesn’t seem like a lot, but most characters have a pretty good crit chance.

    Defense (11.75% to 20%) – Largely meaningless. Defense really isn’t a stat that the vast majority of characters truly benefit from. In most cases, the only reason mods with a defense primary get sliced are for the speed secondary.

    Offense (5.88% to 8.5%) – Pretty much the same as crit damage, but I would argue that offense is more useful in more situations. That guy who was having trouble with the GAS event? All his fast triangles had crit damage primaries and he was using them on Droideka and B1, two characters that cannot critically hit. And you have characters like GK that can give their team crit hit immunity. Offense is always applicable.

    Potency (24% to 30%) – Not a big increase, but having an extra edge to land debuffs or a kit like Tarkin that gives you extra side bonuses make this a popular primary. A lot of characters apply debuffs.

    Tenacity (24% to 35%) – You might notice that it’s higher than the potency, even though they both start at 24%. On average, most characters have more potency than they have tenacity, so this is probably to try and make up some of the difference. There’s also fewer characters that really incentivize tenacity. Jolee is the best example. He gets +100% tenacity from his unique and crit avoidance equal to half his tenacity. So if you can get his tenacity to 100% (not counting the unique), he will be immune to critical hits.

    Crit Avoidance (24% to 35%) – Another niche one, but good to have one or two. Some events or missions can dish out a lot of damage, but putting one of these on a tank can help them stick around for longer.

    Accuracy (12% to ?) – I think the Mk 6 version is 20%, like crit chance. For now, these primary mods (arrows only) are useless. Maybe if there’s ever another evasion meta, but that doesn’t seem all that likely.​

    That’s basically it for the primary stats. Some mods are going to be better for specific characters. I would say if you want to play it safe, save up the resources to slice maybe two or three mods to Mk 6 and use the rest as you see fit. That way if you do get a great mod, you can slice it, but you aren’t just sitting on a bunch of slicing materials that aren’t doing you any good.

    Also keep in mind Mk 6 mods can only be used by G12 characters and above. I have heard of people slicing their fastest mods and then they couldn’t use them in events that they has G11 or below characters for. You only have 17 G12s, so you might not want to start slicing a bunch og mods unless you’re sure you’re not going to need them on any lower gear characters.
     
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  15. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    Ouch! That line is particularly concerning. I was originally going to dump all my 6 dot mod materials on my +10 speed/Protection primary reseved-for-Malak mods. Could it be that my 6-dot slicing material is better used on other toons with better primaries?

    Maybe I should take my Malak mods up to 5-Level A and leave them there?

    Furthermore I might just start liberally going after my best 5 dot mods and taking them up to level A, and leaving them at 5-A at least until after I get C3PO. I plan on trying that event with low gear Ewoks with a zChirpa lead, but with my best possible mods in my roster.

    (GBA is a soon to be gearing focus and is at G9 and has health primary mods, KRU is at G12 and has health primaries - although he's my one off character that's going to be passed around teams after I get SET, so I doubt I want to waste 6 dot mods on an orphaned KRU)
     
  16. Electricboa

    Electricboa Moderator Staff Member

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    I’m speaking generally. Malak actually does really use protection primaries. Best, since it all gets converted to health anyway. And an Mk 5 at 23.5% is going to be better than and Mk 6 at 16% any day.

    Is it really worth slicing those mods for Malak? You can get protection primaries on 4 different mod shapes. Slicing all of them would give you a grand total of +2%. That doesn’t count the secondaries, though, which can get good bumps. I would say it would only be worth it if it had a really good speed secondary and you would really benefit from the extra speed.

    I mean protection as a primary is actually pretty good. You get almost all the benefits from the mod without needing to take it to Mk 6. It’s just the upgrade that isn’t worth as much as others. And when you’re talking about G11 or below, protection primaries are worth a lot more than health. Even at G12, it favors protection. The shift mainly happens at G13 and with relics, which give you big increases in health for most characters that make the health primaries valuable.

    KRU is one of those characters that really benefit from health. If he’s going to be a fill-in character, it’s probably not worth putting too much into him, but his unique does let him recover 8% health every time he takes damage. That can mitigate a lot of damage if you load him up with health. This gets even more impressive at G13. Just to give you an idea, my KRU (at R7) had 111,465 health, so every time get takes damage, he heals 8.917. That can make him very difficult to actually defeat.

    That’s the kind of stuff I mean when I’m talking about health vs protection. Your KRU only has 37,972 health, so the recovery is 3,037.
     
  17. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    I think I might hold off on doing any 6-dot mods until after I successfully acquire C3PO. I cant think of any other journey event where I'd want to put my best mods on non-G12 characters. I know that some folks have successfully done portions of GAS' event with G11s, but man that sounds painful.
     
  18. Dagor

    Dagor Active Member

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    As you get into relic'd characters, % stats become much more useful than flat bonuses. Offense is a good example. For the most part, most people preferred flat +off to off% prior to G13 and especially prior to 6 dot mods. Same goes for flat +health or +prot vs % hp or % prot. The huge increase in stats that come from relic levels make the % stats take a huge step above flat increases. An added benefit is that the upgrade from 5A to 6E ALSO tends to increase % more than it does flat stats. I will often bump up mods to 6E for off% even if it doesn't have a ton of speed for damage dealers because you can end up with some pretty high off% secondaries (nearly as much as a primary if you're lucky) and really increase the damage output for a pure damage dealer.

    As to your original question, IF I'm upgrading a mod to 6E for the speed, I'm usually looking at +15 or higher but generally am looking at my 19+ mods for upgrades first. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 230 6 dot mods, so I am actually looking at more than just the speed secondary most of the time when I'm upgrading mods anymore. I'm looking at the other secondaries and the primary as well. The +7 in speed (upgrading all 6 mods to 6E and assuming a speed arrow) is going to make less difference in general than the primary stat increase and some of the other secondaries like the % stats I mentioned above. There are exceptions of course, my Hux is exactly 2 speed faster than my First Order Officer by design and there are other teams that you may want to "clock" their speeds to set up the ideal turn order, so in those cases those +1 speeds can make a difference.
     
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  19. Dagor

    Dagor Active Member

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    For a 'younger' account such as yours, the more pressing concern is going to be that 6 dot mods can't be used on any non G12 character as Boa mentions above. So you have to really factor that into your decision making. If you take your fastest speed sets to 6 dot, that means you may not be able to move them for TB's or when there's a meta shift in arena. Also have to consider events in that decision too, Chewbacca and C-3PO are good examples of events that don't tacitly require G12, but do require solid mods if you're doing it with characters under G12.
     
  20. Themistocles

    Themistocles Active Member

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    True, but besides C3PO's event, how many more events would you want to do at non-G12?

    Yours and Boa's advice is leaning me towards stopping at 5A levelling for now...what the trigger point is for 6A levelling, I'm not sure at this point.
     

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